Following PepsiGate, I’m opening a book on who’ll be next to jump ship.
Currently we’re offering 3 to 1 on Drugmonkey.
Richard P Grant
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What were your odds on PZ going on strike?
I don’t lay odds on people wimping out.
Actually, the words ‘power vacuum’ keep slipping into my head.
I would have commented earlier, but I might have been accused of insider dealing.
Although Mike Dunford might have got there first, just (they were both scheduled for noon NY time).
RPG said: “Actually, the words ‘power vacuum’ keep slipping into my head.”
And remember, Nature abhors a vacuum.
(Although don’t read anything into that other than M@ likes making bad puns.)
Dusty in here, isn’t it?
There seems to be an awful lot of crybaby noises. eats popcorn
Is it just me or is “going on strike” a bit woosy? I mean, really. Either stay or go.
Heh. Yeah, bets, hedging of; caking, eating it. You choose.
I’m not sure that’s an entirely fair appraisal of PZ’s position. (Although I certainly do understand the temptation to be less-than-fair to PZ when the opportunity presents.)
A lot of us – especially those of us who
have beenwere part of the first couple of waves of bloggers to join the collective have sunk enormous amounts of time, energy, and emotion into Sb over the last few years. PZ probably more than most – he was wildly successful before Sb, but not quite to the extent that he is now. Leaving is not an easy decision to make, particularly if you think there’s something worth salvaging there.A strike is a well-known and effective means of bringing pressure onto management. I chose to leave instead of participating in the strike because with Bora and Grrl both gone I can’t see staying there to be worthwhile for me even if the strike eventually succeeds. But if PZ thinks there’s a chance that public pressure will force the changes he wants to see, he should try that route.
I don’t know, Mike. I find strikes to be morally repugnant in an industrial/business setting. Blame my background.
Here, it seems that striking is something one might do if one didn’t have the balls to quit.
Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with strikes in principle. Blame my background – my mom’s a community organizer, and dad’s been a shop steward a couple of times now.
Is this particular case about really, really not wanting to leave, or just plain not having the balls to? I’m not PZ, so I really can’t say for sure. But based on what I’ve seen as various people tried to kick SMG into action over the past week and a half, my impression is that it’s more the former, so I’m willing to give PZ the benefit of the doubt.
The situation could also be framed as PZ being the only one who’s trying to actually change (and thereby save?) ScienceBlogs, rather than giving it up as a lost cause and jumping ship. Hypothetically 🙂
Blame my background if you like, but like Mike, I have no problem with strikes as a principle. If you have a) a just cause, b) specific demands, and c) enough influence to achieve them, then strikes can be a very effective tool in a wider arsenal.
Whatever anyone might think of PZ, I think it’s clear that he’s not one to shy away from a fight. Again, I’m going to agree with Mike and say I suspect it’s nothing to do with a lack of balls.
I think you’re right on the money – I’m absolutely
scurrying over the railengaging in a marine rodent-like context-dependent dispersal strategy. I’ve put a lot of time and effort into Sb, I think it did a lot that was good, and I think it’s worth saving. I just don’t think it’s salvageable.I hope I’m wrong, and I hope that PZ succeeds. But I’ll be surprised if he does.
There’s another factor you aren’t considering. I’ve currently got a lot of offers sitting in my in-box, some solid, some speculative. I could go in an instant, no problem (well, except for the headaches of moving a big database from one place to another). But if I go…I’ll be tearing out almost half of the traffic at the site and basically scuttling the whole operation.
There are still a lot of other bloggers over there who I consider colleagues and some of them friends, even. I can’t just up and leave in good conscience until we’ve made an effort to rescue everything.
Of course, if I lose any more of my friends over there, then I’ve got nothing holding me back anymore.
But if I go…I’ll be tearing out almost half of the traffic at the site and basically scuttling the whole operation.
You see, this is the whole thing about striking. By not blogging you’re actually hurting the people who want to read you, aren’t you? If SB don’t pay you for a while then it’s probably good for their accounts!
I don’t know–if I truly cared for Scienceblogs I think I would be working to save it (I mean, in recent years I think we can see that strikes do more harm than good to both the ‘workers’ and the ‘management’, not to mention pissing off the ‘customers’). Given how quickly Seed caved to the Pepsi thing, and seeing that as far as I can tell the only ‘just cause’/’specific demand’ is more communication…well.
Stay or go. Don’t piss around.
PZ, I don’t read your blog (except for some unavoidable posts/discussions). But I found many of the points you made in your ‘on strike’ post, especially on communication and letting bloggers be part of it all, very good and applicable to any blogging ‘network’.
Plus: “I can’t just up and leave in good conscience until we’ve made an effort to rescue everything” – also something worth pondering.
Having said that, we as bloggers can only express our views as strongly as possible – and if they aren’t heard, and if we choose to stay anyway (instead of doing our own thing somewhere else), it’s “put up or shut up” I guess.
Cor blimey Richard – what side of the bed did you get out of yesterday? Clearly you and I are far apart on the political spectrum (please say hi to Henry for me). 😉
FWIW I’m with Mike and Cath — and with PZ Myers — in that Myers seems to be following a reasonable course of action aimed at salvaging a blogging network that he has invested in heavily. I suspect his calculation is quite canny and that, even if the management haven’t been able to stem the loss of talent, they will listen seriously to his demands. You seem to dismiss ‘more communication’ as too vague a demand. But I think all of us appreciate the value of good communication. Had it been practised by Adam Bly in the first place, I don’t think Scienceblogs would be in this mess.
Hi, Stephen.
because reducing complex (political) matters to one axis is always a good idea.
It does seem a vague demand, yes. That of course is not to say I don’t value good communication. And it strikes me that the communication from the Scienceblogs writers has been more in the style of a tactical nuclear attack–which, you have to admit, says something–than ‘good’ communication. Blaming Adam Bly alone is a little one-sided. The Pepsi blog was taken down very quickly in response to the outcry, but then people left anyway. It’s almost as if they were looking for an excuse. But that’s beside the point; we’re talking about principles here, I think.
It must be difficult for somebody to jump off a gravy train when they have no guarantee of making good on the loss elsewhere. One’s principles take a bit of a battering. Of course, if the gravy train in question is one’s main source of income it becomes almost impossible.
I don’t think that Myers will suffer greatly, financially, because he is ‘going on strike’. I’d bet you a pint that the furore has increased traffic (and therefore revenue), which will ameliorate any subsequent loss in traffic. How many people, like Steffi, who don’t read Myers’ blog have read that post, for example? And how many ‘new’ readers will trawl his back catalogue? (And to be even more cynical, it wouldn’t surprise me if this was the quietest time for traffic anyway…)
Myers, actually, is in a position where he could in effect become Scienceblogs. I’m sure that hasn’t escaped his notice.
If Bly is so stupid as to ignore the cause of the lemming-like exodus, then I don’t think ‘striking’ would make a difference, and you’re still stuck with somebody who’s a muppet. I say go, and stop farting around; or stay, and make it good again. Not this fence-sitting, no.
What Stephen said.
Including greetings from the Left to Richard and Henry over there…
| waves |
Oh for fuck’s sake. http://www.politicalcompass.org/
Peace and love, folks. Group hug.
I thought I was going to be reading about ScienceBlogs, but it’s suddenly about politics…
Hello PZ! In what way is this really a strike, or more a hiatus while you decide what to do. It seems to me that you are making up your mind about things based not only on what you want from ScienceBlogs, but also on the fact that your community there has already started to unravel, and that you feel you have a sense of responsibility for keeping things together (which is a good thing) and now all eyes are on you and you just need a break.
No amount of striking can fix an already broken community, and I think you might still feel something isn’t quite right even if all your demands are met.
Thank you for that voice of reason, Eva.
IMHO it’s all a storm in a teacup. As I understand it, there are around 80 bloggers on ScienceBlogs, and despite the
funfairfanfare, only about a quarter of them have left.Richard’s point:
‘The Pepsi blog was taken down very quickly in response to the outcry, but then people left anyway. It’s almost as if they were looking for an excuse’
reminds me of a point made in Bora’s megapost
http://coturnix.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/a-farewell-to-scienceblogs-the-changing-science-blogging-ecosystem/
about people leaving a party – once one person gets up to leave, they all do, as if they are just waiting for the cue.
@Richard:
And that’s precisely why I left rather than strike. But it was far from an easy decision, and I spent while sitting on the fence before I jumped, and made less public efforts to try and see if Seed could be persuaded to make some of the same changes that PZ is demanding. I suspect that’s true for a lot of the most recent departures from Sb.
In fact – I don’t have time to do this at the moment, but if nobody else does I might give it a shot later – I suspect that if you look at the list of those who departed from Sb in the past two weeks, you’ll see that most of the ones who left early had not been there as long as those who left late.
It’s very difficult to understate just how much Sb means (or at least meant) to many of us who were there in the early days. The emotional investments are enormous.
heh, “Last in first out”? Very shop steward 😉
@Henry:
The departure rate is only at about 25% right now, yes. But I would be surprised if I’m the last one to ditch as a result of recent events.
Bora may be right that there are elements of Bion’s effect in what is happening right now. I’m not sure that I would have decided to leave if Grrl hadn’t split when she did. But there’s definitely more going on as well. Yes, the Pepsi blog disappeared quickly. Most of those who have left since did not go because of the Pepsi blog per se, but because Seed and Bly were unable to show that they were unwilling or unable to solve the problems that led to the debacle in the first place.
@Richard.
LOL. Didn’t think about it that way.
It’s a strike in all senses of the term: it’s a work stoppage that affects me and affects my ’employer’, and it’s used as leverage to bring change to the bargaining table.
It’s silly to argue that it doesn’t cause any suffering. I knew traffic on the first day would be unaffected, with people coming to gawk, but I also know the importance of regular updates to bring in readers. Traffic on the second day is already about half what it was yesterday and the day before. It’ll drop further still if I keep it up. This does hurt Seed, which uses traffic levels as a selling point to advertisers. It hurts them most because it’s bad PR.
Adam Bly gets a bad rap, but I do think he means well and has a good vision for Sb. It’s been damaged by recent gaffes, but I think some changes in how it is managed can lead to a better network. Broken now, limping for a while to come, but eventually I think it can come back better.
After a month, it’ll all be forgotten about, because something else will have happened. After two months, some of those who have left in haste will be creeping back, starved of an audience. After a year, it’ll be pretty much back to normal. The animals looked from the men to the pigs, and the pigs to the men, and could no longer tell the difference.
Right now it all seems terribly self-indulgent and histrionic. I is bored already.
I do wish you would tell all the people that left that they’re being self-indulgent and histrionic, Henry, and shoo them back into the pig pen by trivializing their concerns.
says the master of empathy.
But if I go…I’ll be tearing out almost half of the traffic at the site and basically scuttling the whole operation.
Thanks for explanation, PZ – this does make sense as you’ve explained it: I hereby retract the “woosy” comment. I’m curious, though, how long it will take for your strike to have an effect. In other words, how big is the oil tanker? And will it sink before it turns?
@PZ – I didn’t mean to ‘trivialize their concerns’ – just that I think they are making an awful lot of fuss about something which is serious (to them), but shouldn’t be a resigning issue.
I am a master of empathy! I savor every twist of the knife. It wouldn’t be half as fun if I couldn’t appreciate the other’s feelings.
The oil tanker is already showing signs of responsiveness, and I think a few good slaps were enough to wake up the management. We’ll know by tomorrow if we can get some changes started, but it’ll take a good long while to know if we’ve steered clear of the shoals.
I don’t know, Henry. There’s a weird dynamic here: people who leave on principle are told that it shouldn’t be a resigning issue; people who stay and fight are wimping out. I guess the only safe course is unstinting passivity.
Which does suit my natural inclination to laziness, I suppose. I’ll sleep on it.
PZ, I think your instincts are correct. It’ll all blow over and some accommodation will be reached, and though some former residents of Sb will be happier elsewhere, others might regret decisions made in (relative) haste. I hope you stay at Sb and keep the brand going somehow, it would be a shame if all that hard work and emotional capital were dissipated.
Henry –
I’m curious as to what you think the issue is that’s been driving so many of us to leave in recent days.
(deep sigh)
Just so we’re clear, there was absolutely no snark intended in the last. I know what the issues are from my own perspective, but I’m honestly curious as to how things appear from a more distant view.
Où sont les science bloggers d’antan?
@Mike – the emotional commitment of bloggers to Sb cannot be doubted, and one can quite understand how many of them feel that this has been cheapened, for them, by the whole business of the Pepsi blog. However, the number of Sb bloggers who have left is only about a quarter of the total, as I understand it, and in the long view the whole business will probably not matter much. Sb will settle down to a new equilibrium, I guess.
From my perspective it seems like a storm in a teacup. I know that some people get offended by this apparent failure to empathize with their situation (the same people who have no scruples about dishing out offence to others), but that’s the way I see it, honestly and simply.
If there is one exception, that’s Bora, who almost uniquely among bloggers (and I include myself here) is quite selfless, more interested in promoting the activities of others, rather than broadcasting his own internal state. Perhaps it’s because I’m English rather than American, but I do tend to find that such public breast-beating gets a little wearisome after a time, particularly to those not directly involved.